NETSOL TECHNOLOGIES INC

Previous wording

We webcast our earnings calls and certain events we participate in or host with members of the investment community on our investor relations website. Additionally, we provide notifications of news or announcements regarding our financial performance, including SEC filings, investor events, press and earnings releases, and blogs as part of our investor relations website and on social media platforms linked to our corporate website. Investors and others can receive notifications of new information posted on our investor relations website by signing up for e-mail alerts. Further corporate governance information, including our committee charters and code of conduct, is also available on our investor relations website athttps://ir.netsoltech.com/all-sec-filings. The content of our websites is not intended to be incorporated by reference into this or in any other report or document we file with the SEC, and any references to our websites are intended to be inactive textual references only.

Current wording

We webcast our earnings calls and certain events we participate in or host with members of the investment community on our investor relations website. Additionally, we provide notifications of news or announcements regarding our financial performance, including SEC filings, investor events, press and earnings releases, and blogs as part of our investor relations website and on social media platforms linked to our corporate website. Investors and others can receive notifications of new information posted on our investor relations website by signing up for e-mail alerts. Further corporate governance information, including our committee charters and code of conduct, is also available on our investor relations website at https://ir.netsoltech.com/all-sec-filings. The content of our websites is not intended to be incorporated by reference into this or in any other report or document we file with the SEC, and any references to our websites are intended to be inactive textual references only.

Previous wording

Renowned for a deep industry expertise, customer-centric approach and commitment to excellence, NetSol seeks to foster strong partnerships with its clients, ensuring their success in an ever-evolving landscape. With a rich history of innovation, ethical business practices and a focus on sustainability, NetSol is dedicated to empowering businesses worldwide, securing its position as the trusted partner for leading firms around the globe.

Current wording

Renowned for its deep industry expertise, customer-centric approach and commitment to excellence, NetSol fosters strong partnerships with its clients, ensuring their success in an ever-evolving landscape. With a rich history of innovation, ethical business practices and a focus on sustainability, NetSol is dedicated to empowering businesses worldwide, securing its position as the trusted partner for leading firms around the globe.

Previous wording

We are also committed to serving Tier-2 and Tier-3 banks and financial institutions. We understand the unique challenges faced by these institutions, which is why we offer innovative cloud implementation solutions without any license fees, with rapid deployments and with the ability to scale. Further, our out-of-the-box, API-first products are designed to seamlessly integrate into existing systems, providing flexibility and scalability that smaller institutions often need. By prioritizing accessibility and ease of use, we empower smaller financial companies to enhance their service offerings and streamline operations, positioning ourselves as a trusted partner in their digital transformation journey.

Current wording

We are also committed to serving Tier-2 and Tier-3 banks and financial institutions. We understand the unique challenges faced by these institutions, which is why we offer innovative cloud implementation solutions without any license fees, with rapid deployments and the with ability to scale. Further, our out-of-the-box, API-first products are designed to seamlessly integrate into existing systems, providing flexibility and scalability that smaller institutions often need. By prioritizing accessibility and ease of use, we empower smaller financial companies to enhance their service offerings and streamline operations, positioning ourselves as a trusted partner in their digital transformation journey.

Previous wording

Subscription and support fees for the three months ended March 31, 2025 were $7,888,360 compared to $7,140,358 for the three months ended March 31, 2024 reflecting an increase of $748,002 with an increase in constant currency of $768,805. Subscription and support fees begin once a customer has “gone live” with our product. Subscription and support fees are recurring in nature, and we anticipate these fees to gradually increase as we implement both our NFS legacy products and NFS Ascent®.

Current wording

Subscription and support fees for the three months ended September 30, 2025 were $8,960,555 compared to $8,192,471 for the three months ended September 30, 2024 reflecting an increase of $768,084 with an increase in constant currency of $899,515. Subscription and support fees begin once a customer has “gone live” with our product. Subscription and support fees are recurring in nature, and we anticipate these fees to gradually increase as we implement both our NFS legacy products and NFS Ascent®.

Previous wording

Services income for the three months ended March 31, 2025 was $9,654,399 compared to $7,765,818 for the three months ended March 31, 2024 reflecting an increase of $1,888,581, with an increase in constant currency of $1,863,412. The increase is mainly due to implementation services in the U.S. and Europe.

Current wording

Services income for the three months ended September 30, 2025 was $5,979,143 compared to $6,404,798 for the three months ended September 30, 2024 reflecting a decrease of $425,655, with a decrease in constant currency of $479,416. Services revenue decreased compared to the prior quarter primarily due to the timing and composition of implementation projects.

Previous wording

The gross profit was $8,741,773, for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared with $7,474,820 for the three months ended March 31, 2024. This is an increase of $1,266,953 with an increase in constant currency of $1,268,499. The gross profit percentage for the three months ended March 31, 2025 also increased to 49.8% from 48.3% for the three months ended March 31, 2024. The cost of sales was $8,802,184 for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared to $7,989,696 for the three months ended March 31, 2024 for an increase of $812,488 and on a constant currency basis an increase of $829,393. As a percentage of sales, cost of sales decreased from 51.7% for the three months ended March 31, 2024 to 50.2% for the three months ended March 31, 2025.

Current wording

The gross profit was $5,911,990 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared with $6,564,112 for the three months ended September 30, 2024. This is a decrease of $652,122 with a decrease in constant currency of $669,534. The gross profit percentage for the three months ended September 30, 2025 also decreased to 39.4% from 45.0% for the three months ended September 30, 2024. The cost of sales was $9,099,933 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to $8,034,386 for the three months ended September 30, 2024 for an increase of $1,065,547 and on a constant currency basis an increase of $1,157,815. As a percentage of sales, cost of sales increased from 55.0% for the three months ended September 30, 2024 to 60.6% for the three months ended September 30, 2025.

Previous wording

Salaries and consultant fees increased by $968,018 from $5,803,910 for the three months ended March 31, 2024 to $6,771,928 for the three months ended March 31, 2025 and on a constant currency basis increased by $982,985. The increase is due to annual salary raises. As a percentage of sales, salaries and consultant expense increased from 37.5% for the three months ended March 31, 2024 to 38.6% for the three months ended March 31, 2025.

Current wording

Salaries and consultant fees increased by $760,792 from $6,203,734 for the three months ended September 30, 2024 to $6,964,526 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 and on a constant currency basis increased by $789,164. The increase is due to annual salary raises. As a percentage of sales, salaries and consultant expense increased from 42.5% for the three months ended September 30, 2024 to 46.4% for the three months ended September 30, 2025.

Previous wording

Travel expenses were $451,895 for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared to $799,560 for the three months ended March 31, 2024 for a decrease of $347,665 with a decrease in constant currency of $346,479. As a percentage of sales, travel expense decreased from 5.2% for the three months ended March 31, 2024 to 2.6% for the three months ended March 31, 2025.

Current wording

Travel expenses were $498,172 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to $570,862 for the three months ended September 30, 2024 for a decrease of $72,690 with a decrease in constant currency of $71,543. As a percentage of sales, travel expense decreased from 3.9% for the three months ended September 30, 2024 to 3.3% for the three months ended September 30, 2025.

Previous wording

Depreciation and amortization expense decreased to $240,444 compared to $250,126 for the three months ended March 31, 2024 or a decrease of $9,682 and on a constant currency basis a decrease of $9,512.

Current wording

Depreciation and amortization expense decreased to $208,731 compared to $228,550 for the three months ended September 30, 2024 or a decrease of $19,819 and on a constant currency basis a decrease of $16,277.

Previous wording

Operating expenses were $7,188,375 for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared to $6,156,917, for the three months ended March 31, 2024 for an increase of $1,031,458 and on a constant currency basis an increase of $1,038,277. As a percentage of sales, it increased from 39.8% to 41.0%. The increase in operating expenses was primarily due to increases in selling and marketing expenses, salaries and wages and provision for doubtful accounts off set by decrease in other general and administrative expenses.

Current wording

Operating expenses were $7,750,696 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to $7,324,270, for the three months ended September 30, 2024 for an increase of $426,426 and on a constant currency basis an increase of $445,820. As a percentage of sales, it increased from 50.2% to 51.6%. The increase in operating expenses was primarily due to increases in selling and marketing expenses, salaries and wages, offset by a decrease in other general and administrative expenses and the provision for doubtful accounts.

Previous wording

Selling expenses were $2,426,083 for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared to $1,830,025, for the three months ended March 31, 2024 for an increase of $596,058 and on a constant currency basis an increase of $585,484. The increase is mainly due to increases is salaries and consultants of approximately $427,000, due to annual raises and the hiring of additional marketing personnel. Other marketing expenses increased by approximately $130,000 due to the increase in advertising and marketing events.

Current wording

Selling and marketing expenses were $3,116,953 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to $2,292,199, for the three months ended September 30, 2024 for an increase of $824,754 and on a constant currency basis an increase of $847,959. The increase is mainly due to increases in salaries and consultants of approximately $663,739, due to annual raises and the hiring of additional marketing personnel. Other marketing expenses increased by approximately $151,836 due to the increase in advertising and marketing events.

Previous wording

General and administrative expenses were $4,457,504 for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared to $3,981,310 for the three months ended March 31, 2024 or an increase of $476,194 and on a constant currency basis an increase of $493,629. During the three months ended March 31, 2025, salaries increased by $14,558 and increased $21,091 on a constant currency basis, bad debt expense increased $606,795 and increased $616,360 on a constant currency basis, and other general and administrative expenses decreased $145,149 and decreased by $143,822 on a constant currency basis.

Current wording

General and administrative expenses were $4,419,400 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to $4,672,122 for the three months ended September 30, 2024 or a decrease of $252,722 and on a constant currency basis a decrease of $260,336. During the three months ended September 30, 2025, salaries increased by $144,888 and increased $144,575 on a constant currency basis, bad debt expense decreased $338,089 and decreased $338,062 on a constant currency basis, and other general and administrative expenses decreased $59,521 and decreased by $66,849 on a constant currency basis.

Previous wording

Research and development cost was $304,788 for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared to $345,582, for the three months ended March 31, 2024 for a decrease of $40,794 and on a constant currency basis a decrease of $40,836.

Current wording

Research and development cost was $214,343 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to $359,949, for the three months ended September 30, 2024 for a decrease of $145,606 and on a constant currency basis a decrease of $141,803.

Previous wording

Income from operations was $1,553,398 for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared to $1,317,903 for the three months ended March 31, 2024. This represents an increase of $235,495 with an increase of $230,222 on a constant currency basis for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared with the three months ended March 31, 2024. As a percentage of sales, income from operations was 8.9% for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared to 8.5% for the three months ended March 31, 2024.

Current wording

Loss from operations was $1,838,706 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to $760,158 for the three months ended September 30, 2024. This represents an increase in loss of $1,078,548 with an increase of $1,115,354 on a constant currency basis for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared with the three months ended September 30, 2024. As a percentage of sales, loss from operations was 12.3% for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to a loss from operations of 5.2% for the three months ended September 30, 2024.

Previous wording

Other income was $432,366 for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared to other expense of $855,464 for the three months ended March 31, 2024. This represents an increase in other income of $1,287,830 with an increase of $1,286,923 on a constant currency basis. The increase is primarily due to the foreign currency exchange transactions. The majority of the contracts with NetSol PK are either in U.S. dollars or Euros; therefore, the currency fluctuations will lead to foreign currency exchange gains or losses depending on the value of the PKR compared to the U.S. dollar and the Euro. During the three months ended March 31, 2025, we recognized a gain of $321,622 in foreign currency exchange transactions compared to a loss of $963,887 for the three months ended March 31, 2024. During the three months ended March 31, 2025, the value of the U.S. dollar increased 0.3% and the Euro increased 4.5%, compared to the PKR. During the three months ended March 31, 2024, the value of the U.S. dollar and the Euro decreased 0.6% and 2.8%, compared to the PKR.

Current wording

Other expense was $162,884 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to other income of $1,207,684 for the three months ended September 30, 2024. This represents a decrease in other income of $1,370,568 with a decrease of $1,371,569 on a constant currency basis. The decrease is primarily due to the foreign currency exchange transactions. The majority of the contracts with NetSol PK are either in U.S. dollars or Euros; therefore, the currency fluctuations will lead to foreign currency exchange gains or losses depending on the value of the PKR compared to the U.S. dollar and the Euro. During the three months ended September 30, 2025, we recognized a loss of $286,917 in foreign currency exchange transactions compared to a gain of $542,545 for the three months ended September 30, 2024. During the three months ended September 30, 2025, the value of the U.S. dollar decreased 0.6% and the Euro decreased 0.7%, compared to the PKR. During the three months ended September 30, 2024, the value of the U.S. dollar decreased 0.2% and the Euro increased 3.9%, compared to the PKR.

Previous wording

For the three months ended March 31, 2025, the net income attributable to non-controlling interest was $410,462, compared to net income of $11,679 for the three months ended March 31, 2024. The increase in non-controlling interest is primarily due to the increase in net income of NetSol PK.

Current wording

For the three months ended September 30, 2025, the net income attributable to non-controlling interest was $139,923, compared to $146,914 for the three months ended September 30, 2024.

Previous wording

The net income was $1,423,968 for the three months ended March 31, 2025 compared to $327,549 for the three months ended March 31, 2024. This is an increase of $1,096,419 with an increase of $1,039,042 on a constant currency basis, compared to the prior year. For the three months ended March 31, 2025, net income per share was $0.12 for basic and diluted shares compared to net income per share of $0.03 for basic and diluted shares for the three months ended March 31, 2024.

Current wording

The net loss was $2,357,288 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to net income of $70,795 for the three months ended September 30, 2024. This is a decrease of $2,428,083 with a decrease of $2,509,233 on a constant currency basis, compared to the prior year. For the three months ended September 30, 2025, net loss per share was $0.20 for basic and diluted shares compared to net income per share of $0.006 for basic and diluted shares for the three months ended September 30, 2024.

Previous wording

Our reconciliation of the non-GAAP financial measures of adjusted EBITDA and non-GAAP earnings per basic and diluted share to the most comparable GAAP measures for the three and nine months ended March 31, 2025 and 2024 are as follows:

Current wording

Our reconciliation of the non-GAAP financial measures of adjusted EBITDA and non-GAAP earnings per basic and diluted share to the most comparable GAAP measures for the three months ended September 30, 2025 and 2024 are as follows:

Previous wording

Our cash position was $18,774,739 at March 31, 2025, compared to $19,127,165 at June 30, 2024.

Current wording

Our cash position was $22,690,618 at September 30, 2025, compared to $17,357,944 at June 30, 2025.

Previous wording

Net cash provided by operating activities was $6,315 for the nine months ended March 31, 2025 compared to net cash used in operating activities of $3,602,677 for the nine months ended March 31, 2024. At March 31, 2025, we had current assets of $42,411,540 and current liabilities of $18,738,636. We had accounts receivable of $5,443,498 at March 31, 2025 compared to $13,049,614 at June 30, 2024. We had revenues in excess of billings of $15,424,896 at March 31, 2025 compared to $13,638,547 at June 30, 2024 of which $697,486 and $954,029 is shown as long-term as of March 31, 2025 and June 30, 2024, respectively. The long-term portion was discounted by $97,285 and $152,446 at March 31, 2025 and June 30, 2024, respectively, using the discounted cash flow method with interest rates ranging from 7.3% to 17.5%. During the nine months ended March 31, 2025, our revenues in excess of billings were reclassified to accounts receivable pursuant to billing requirements detailed in each contract. The combined totals for accounts receivable and revenues in excess of billings decreased by $5,819,767 from $26,688,161 at June 30, 2024 to $20,868,394 at March 31, 2025. At March 31, 2025 and June 30, 2024, accounts payable and accrued expenses were $7,097,343 and $8,232,842, respectively. At March 31 2025 and June 30, 2024 the current portions of loans and lease obligations were $8,459,991 and $6,276,125, respectively.

Current wording

Net cash provided by operating activities was $5,303,561 for the three months ended September 30, 2025 compared to $5,517,745 for the three months ended September 30, 2024. At September 30, 2025, we had current assets of $46,592,989 and current liabilities of $21,659,278. We had accounts receivable of $6,320,988 at September 30, 2025 compared to $7,527,572 at June 30, 2025. We had revenues in excess of billings of $14,875,704 at September 30, 2025 compared to $19,134,385 at June 30, 2025 of which $881,053 and $903,766 is shown as long-term as of September 30, 2025 and June 30, 2025, respectively. The long-term portion was discounted by $183,137 and $208,037 at September 30, 2025 and June 30, 2025, respectively, using the discounted cash flow method with interest rates ranging from 4.2% to 17.5%. During the three months ended September 30, 2025, our revenues in excess of billings were reclassified to accounts receivable pursuant to billing requirements detailed in each contract. The combined totals for accounts receivable and revenues in excess of billings decreased by $5,465,265 from $26,661,957 at June 30, 2025 to $21,196,692 at September 30, 2025. Accounts payable and accrued expenses, and current portions of loans and lease obligations amounted to $9,191,552 and $8,330,243, respectively, at September 30, 2025. Accounts payable and accrued expenses, and current portions of loans and lease obligations amounted to $8,010,844 and $8,240,061, respectively, at June 30, 2025.

Previous wording

The average days sales outstanding for the nine months ended March 31, 2025 and 2024 were 137 and 147 days, respectively. The days sales outstanding have been calculated by taking into consideration the average combined balances of accounts receivable and revenues in excess of billings.

Current wording

The average days sales outstanding for the three months ended September 30, 2025 and 2024 were 147 and 150 days, respectively. The days sales outstanding have been calculated by taking into consideration the average combined balances of accounts receivable and revenues in excess of billings.

Previous wording

Net cash used in investing activities was $843,044 for the nine months ended March 31, 2025, compared to $822,451 for the nine months ended March 31, 2024. We had purchases of property and equipment of $897,743 compared to $948,337 for the nine months ended March 31, 2024.

Current wording

Net cash used in investing activities was $443,198 for the three months ended September 30, 2025, compared to $108,632 for the three months ended September 30, 2024. We had purchases of property and equipment of $485,281 compared to $100,737 for the three months ended September 30, 2024.

Previous wording

Net cash provided by financing activities was $866,299 for the nine months ended March 31, 2025, compared to $33,612 for the nine months ended March 31, 2024. During the nine months ended March 31, 2025, we received bank proceeds of $2,451,256 compared to $340,847 during the nine months ended March 31, 2024. During the nine months ended March 31, 2025, we had net payments for bank loans and finance leases of $247,496 compared to $307,235 for the nine months ended March 31, 2024. Employees of the Company exercised 220,00 options of common stock for $473,000. NetSol PK, a subsidiary of the Company, paid a dividend of $306,799 to the non-controlling shareholders. NetSol PK purchased 2,690,251 shares of its common stock from the open market for $1,503,662. We are operating in various geographical regions of the world through our various subsidiaries. Those subsidiaries have financial arrangements from various financial institutions to meet both their short and long-term funding requirements. These loans will become due at different maturity dates as described in Note 12 of the financial statements. We are in compliance with the covenants of the financial arrangements and there is no default, which may lead to early payment of these obligations. We anticipate paying back all these obligations on their respective due dates from its own sources.

Current wording

Net cash provided by financing activities was $191,218 for the three months ended September 30, 2025, compared to $153,189 for the three months ended September 30, 2024. During the three months ended September 30, 2025, we received bank proceeds of $242,421 compared to $250,000 during the three months ended September 30, 2024. During the three months ended September 30, 2025, we had net payments for bank loans and finance leases of $115,350 compared to $118,311 for the three months ended September 30, 2024. Employees of our subsidiary, NetSol PK, exercised 278,455 options of common stock for $76,567, of which $64,147 was received during the quarter ended September 30, 2025 and $12,420 was received during the fiscal year ended June 30, 2025. We are operating in various geographical regions of the world through our various subsidiaries. Those subsidiaries have financial arrangements with various financial institutions to meet both their short and long-term funding requirements. These loans will become due at different maturity dates as described in Note 12 of the financial statements. We are in compliance with the covenants of the financial arrangements and there is no default, which may lead to early payment of these obligations. We anticipate paying back all these obligations on their respective due dates from its own sources.

Previous wording

We typically fund the cash requirements for our operations in the U.S. through our license, services, and subscription and support agreements, intercompany charges for corporate services, and through the exercise of options and warrants. As of March 31, 2025, we had approximately $18.8 million of cash, cash equivalents and marketable securities of which approximately $17.8 million is held by our foreign subsidiaries. As of June 30, 2024, we had approximately $19.1 million of cash, cash equivalents and marketable securities of which approximately $18.2 million is held by our foreign subsidiaries.

Current wording

We typically fund the cash requirements for our operations in the U.S. through our license, services, and subscription and support agreements, intercompany charges for corporate services, and through the exercise of options and warrants. As of September 30, 2025, we had approximately $22.7 million of cash, cash equivalents and marketable securities of which approximately $22 million is held by our foreign subsidiaries. As of June 30, 2025, we had approximately $17.4 million of cash, cash equivalents and marketable securities of which approximately $16.4 million is held by our foreign subsidiaries.

Previous wording

We remain open to strategic relationships that would provide value added benefits. The focus will remain on continuously improving cash reserves internally and reduced reliance on external capital raise.

Current wording

We remain open to strategic relationships that would provide value added benefits. The focus will remain on continuously improving cash reserves internally and reducing reliance on external capital raises.

Previous wording

As a growing company, we have on-going capital expenditure needs based on our short term and long-term business plans. Although our requirements for capital expenses vary from time to time, for the next 12 months, we anticipate needing $1.5 million for APAC, the U.S. and Europe’s new business development activities and infrastructure enhancements, which we expect to provide from current operations.

Current wording

As a growing company, we have ongoing capital expenditure needs based on our short-term and long-term business plans. Although our requirements for capital expenses vary from time to time, for the next 12 months, we anticipate needing $1.5 million for APAC, the U.S. and Europe’s new business development activities and infrastructure enhancements, which we expect to provide from current operations.

Previous wording

Our UK based subsidiary, NTE, has an approved overdraft facility of £300,000 ($389,610) which requires that the aggregate amount of invoiced trade debtors (net of provisions for bad and doubtful debts and excluding intra-group debtors) of NTE, not exceeding 90 days old, will not be less than an amount equal to 200% of the facility. The Pakistani subsidiary, NetSol PK has an approved facility for export refinance from Askari Bank Limited amounting to Rupees 600 million ($2,145,846) and a running finance facility of Rupees 4.1 million ($14,488). NetSol PK has an approved facility for export refinance from another Habib Metro Bank Limited amounting to Rupees 1.3 billion ($4,649,333). These facilities require NetSol PK to maintain a long-term debt equity ratio of 60:40 and the current ratio of 1:1. NetSol PK also has an approved export refinance facility of Rs. 380 million ($1,359,036) from Samba Bank Limited. During the loan tenure, these two facilities require NetSol PK to maintain at a minimum a current ratio of 1:1, an interest coverage ratio of 4 times, a leverage ratio of 2 times, and a debt service coverage ratio of 4 times.

Current wording

Our UK based subsidiary, NTE, has an approved overdraft facility of £300,000 ($405,405) which requires that the aggregate amount of invoiced trade debtors (net of provisions for bad and doubtful debts and excluding intra-group debtors) of NTE, not exceeding 90 days old, will not be less than an amount equal to 200% of the facility. The Pakistani subsidiary, NetSol PK has an approved facility for export refinance from Askari Bank Limited amounting to Rupees 600 million ($2,124,495) and a running finance facility of Rupees 4.1 million ($14,344). NetSol PK has an approved facility for export refinance from Habib Metro Bank Limited amounting to Rupees 1.3 billion ($4,603,073) and another export refinance facility amounting to Rupees 400 million ($1,416,331) from Bank Al-Habib. These facilities require NetSol PK to maintain a long-term debt equity ratio of 60:40 and the current ratio of 1:1. NetSol PK also has an approved export refinance facility of Rs. 380 million ($1,345,514) from Samba Bank Limited. During the loan tenure, these two facilities require NetSol PK to maintain at a minimum a current ratio of 1:1, an interest coverage ratio of 4 times, a leverage ratio of 2 times, and a debt service coverage ratio of 4 times.